The Power of Diverse Kid Lit with Dr. Ramona

On this episode of Children Deserve Better, Dr. Jasmine Moses is joined by Dr.Ramona, the Baby Book Doc, for a powerful conversation about books, representation, and why diverse children’s literature matters for every child.

Dr. Ramona is a millennial mom, School Psychologist, and Professor, who is uplifting Black and Brown identities, using storytelling to dismantle systems of oppression, and sharing book joy.

Together, they explore how books can affirm children, spark curiosity, support empathy, and help grownups navigate meaningful conversations.

In this episode, they discuss:

• How diverse kid lit helps children build empathy, critical thinking, and connection
• What adults should look for when choosing inclusive books
•  Why do supporting libraries, authors, and independent bookstores matter
• How reading can be an act of resistance, joy, and community care
• The importance of modeling a love of books for the children in our lives
• Why children and grownups both deserve books that help them feel seen and valued
• Dr. Jasmine’s New Book! 

Find Dr. Ramona’s Work Here: 

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/babybookdoc/
• Substack: https://substack.com/@babybookdoc
• Website: https://babybookdoc.com/

Other Resources: 

Cindelles Bookstore: https://www.cindellesbookstore.com/

Black Kid Lit Collective: https://www.instagram.com/blackkidlitcollective/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to the Children Deserve Better Podcast, where we unpack the big issues shaping our children and communities. I'm your host, Dr. Jasmine Moses, a Tyler mama, anti-biased, anti-racist educator, and advocate for building a better, more equitable world for all. Here we dive into social justice, community challenges, and those taboo conversations, breaking them down into real talk that makes sense for children or even actionable steps for the adults guiding them. Children are ready. You can do this. So let's dive in together. Welcome back. Today I am joined by Dr. Ramona, also known as Baby Book Doc, for a powerful conversation about the role of diverse children's literature and why the books our children have access to matter so deeply. Dr. Ramona is a millennial mom, school psychologist, and professor who is uplifting black and brown identities using storytelling to dismantle systems of oppression and sharing book joy. On this episode of Children Deserve Better, we talk about the importance of diverse children's books and why diverse kidlet is important for all children, how books help children understand identity, build empathy, and make sense of the world around them. A few things to look for when choosing books, why supporting authors, libraries, and independent bookstores is part of how we show care for our community, how reading can be an act of joy, connection, and resistance. Ooh, and I also share a little bit about my upcoming children's book, Big Love, and what it means to me to bring that story into the world. I really could sit and talk to Dr. Ramona all day, and I hope that you enjoy listening to this episode as much as we enjoyed recording it. Enjoy the show. Hello and welcome back to Children Deserve Better. I have the lovely Dr. Ramona here with me today, and we are going to talk about all things related to diverse kidlets. You know that I have a love for books. You know how important they are to the work that I do. You know how important it is to the work that Dr. Ramona does. So I am excited for this conversation. Dr. Ramona, thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. Of course. And so if you don't mind, can you tell us who are you and how do you make the world better for children?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

This is such a good question. I love that you lead with this. I'm Dr. Ramona. I'm a school psychologist, I'm a professor, I'm a millennial mom, which is so exciting. I use my online platforms, Baby Book Doc, to advocate for a kidlet and to make it more inclusive and to represent global majority kids.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

If you are not following the Baby Book Doc on Instagram, on Substack, and a bunch of other places, please do so. As a bookish mom, I absolutely love your work and I love your tagline of raising a bookworm. Why do books and literature matter so much, not just for children, but for the grown-ups raising and caring for them too?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

We came up with that tagline, you know, we've put it on merch, all kinds of stuff. Because it represents a very intentional shift that you have to take as a parent in what you're doing at home. Kidlit literature, books, they're they're so important to child development. They offer children the opportunity to affirm their identity. For global majority kids, that's so, so, so important. They allow children to really get a picture of the world. They allow children to be whimsical, to use their imagination. I love using children's books for social emotional learning. I think it's so helpful to teach about those feelings, to normalize conversations. For grown-ups, I find personally, sometimes I'm reading a children's book and I'm just like, this is healing my inner child. So that happens a lot. And then also for the grown-ups, when it comes to like more difficult conversations, so maybe things like food insecurity, again, talking about big feelings, enslavement, you know, just some of those bigger, difficult conversations, children's books can be so helpful for giving folks the language and guiding how you have those conversations in an age-appropriate way.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Absolutely. And I always say when I talk about them, I toggle between like children's books and picture books, right? That those terms because I feel that these books that are created for children ideally actually make it easier for grown-ups to be able to, like you said, navigate these topics, right? Taking these big, big, big ideas and breaking them down in a way that's easy for everyone to be able to understand. So I think it spans across the ages.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

And I I give so much credit to authors because to be able to take such complex topics and figure out a way, like that's such, it's an art and a science, I feel like, to just be able to conceptualize some of these really difficult conversations or just like lived realities in a way that kids can understand is developmentally appropriate. So I don't think kid authors get enough acknowledgement for that because it is so hard. Yeah, it is and they do it so well.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, and I don't think I appreciate like I loved reading. Like I am very much a bookworm who turned into a bookworm mama. But as a child, I don't think I recognize, like you said, like how amazing the work. Like I enjoyed the book, sure. But it definitely now as a grown-up, as a educator, as a mom, like I have a deeper appreciation for the product, the books that came out, but also the folks who are writing them because it it's no easy feat. It is really an important job, and they are making a lot of important strides in the field. And I love that. I love being able to see that in real time.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

So that brings me to when adults are choosing books for children, what should they be looking for? A lot of times people want to select books that they can use as tools, maybe to have conversations or even books for enjoyment. What should they be looking for to make sure that those books are truly inclusive of diverse people, places, cultures, et cetera?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Absolutely. I get this question a lot. Um, and to like put it in the most simple way, consider the source. That's really what I always come back to is like consider the source. Who is the author, who's the illustrator, who's a publisher, and just kind of think about what their perspective and lived experiences are. For me, it is absolutely critical if I'm going to read a top a book about a topic or that has a representation of an identity, whether it's race or culture, et cetera, religion, that that author has a lived reality under that identity. So that becomes so critical to me. If we really want to have those voices, marginalized voices or oppressed voices, um, to be amplified, we have to hear from folks who have this lived reality. So that's like simply like the simplest way is like I'm checking who the author is. My husband will make fun of me. Like, we'll be in the bookstore. I see something that maybe I'm not familiar with or not familiar with the author, I'm pulling out my phone and doing my due diligence saying who are we by? And I I need to know because you know, there's also just so much power in who we support and and whose work we uplift. So do your homework is really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yes, yes, yes. I completely agree. And I think that, like you said, spans not just for when you're looking for books about like different cultures or identities, but even books about maybe holidays or experiences or anything. I think that it's important that we honor and uplift the people who have those firsthand experiences. So I completely agree with that. And I think that that's important to continue to remind people as they continue to select these books. Also, the fact that people still think that some of these diverse books and um diverse kidlet are only for certain children. Why are they as essential for all children?

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah. By training, I'm a system psychologist, a community psychologist. So I think of things in systems, I think of things in community norms, and that way of thinking is so harmful, right? I only care about something or only care about a group of people if it's my lived experience or if it's something that is happening to me. And I feel like our children deserve better, right? So for us to really build community, to really build collectivism, to have this shared lived experience, we really have to emphasize for, you know, future generations of children that we need to care about each other. We need to care about each other, even if our lived experiences aren't the same. But yeah, we we view diversity as like an add-on. And it's a privilege to look at it in that way, right? It's a privilege to say, like, hey, that might not be my problem. Um, but at the end of the day, when we think about community and collectivism and uplifting each other, it's our obligation to learn about each other, to uplift children of global majority of all lived experiences and to hold folks accountable.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah, and this is just one of the ways to be able to do that, but it's such an important way. And when I do a lot of my anti-bias trainings, one of the ways that I talk to people about introducing these topics and having these conversations with not just children, but with families too, is through books, through literature. And so we know that you can use books to open your minds to new perspectives and ideas. And that's important for everyone. We also can use books as a tool for critical thinking, right? Which we absolutely need to preserve. I feel like I say it every time I'm on this show, but that feel like it's becoming a lost art, right? And so we want to make sure that we are keeping that alive within our culture because we need more opportunities. But I think that it is harmful for people to have that perspective. And I think folks would be surprised how many people are still holding on to some of those biases about even the books that we can use. And I know we're coming up on um National Library Week is starting this coming week. And so even seeing some of the conversations that are happening around book banning or just how important literature is, and the way that you can tell how important it is is if people are trying to ban it, right? So that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

There's a reason why. Yes, and so that that division doesn't serve us as a community, right? And to go back to something you said a few minutes ago when you are giving recommendations to families and you're talking about the importance of literature, if you approach parenting from that perspective, right? So being diverse or teaching about other identities outside of your own as the norm, right? It just is it's business as usual. It starts to integrate into their foundation that, you know, this is how it is, this is the world. There are people that may like be similar to me, and there are people that are not. And I'm curious, and I want to support everyone, and I want to, you know, everyone to be happy, healthy, and safe, right? Once you start to do it, you encourage the conversations, it becomes part of your family's norm. It's part of the foundation. You don't think twice about it. It doesn't become this. I'm going to try to be diverse today. I'm going to try to pick a diverse book when we're at the library. It's what we do, it's who we are. And I think having that value system for kids is so important, especially when we're thinking about kidlet and banned books and the threat against humanity and collectivism. Like we need to be intentional with how we do that.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah, the more we make it the norm, the easier it will be to shift the narrative. When we keep trying to the microphone. When we keep trying to other things, like I find it incredibly frustrating when there are folks who have the mindset of this is my anti-biased day, or this is the hour of time where we focus on social justice, or this is the week, maybe that we read banned books only. I have a hard time with that because that is, like you said, continuing to create that divide. The more we make these things the norm, the more it shifts, not just for our culture, but for the children that are continuing to come after us. Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's so many opportunities for literature. There's so much that we can do. But I think the more we begin to shift, right? It might create a cycle where then it goes maybe from, you know, the books that are already created and reading more of those to now there are people who are trying to tell their stories more and more diverse lit that is coming out because we know that's a whole nother conversation when it comes to publishing, right? Books that are being published and the numbers of how many diverse voices are represented within publishing and within literature. And so I think that with like a lot of things, once we start to make the right thing, the norm, a lot of these other things will change and shift and it will be easier for people to get on board, I think, with um honoring these voices and this diverse kid lit. And because this is something that our children need. This is not optional. This is something that they need and that we should want them to have. There is a big world out there. We're not just raising our children in our current towns.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

We should be raising them to be global citizens and to understand that there are people all over, which is exciting, right? You haven't met everyone that you're going to know that's going to love you. You haven't met them yet. Like that's exciting. And so I think that we need to do more of that within our field and also just within our parenting as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

It's so important. It's such an important um to echo what you're saying, right, Dr. Jasmine. It's such an intentional shift in your parenting and one of the biggest, I feel like, life skills that you can give your kid. Because, like you said, they're gonna grow up, they're gonna get out of their bubble, they're gonna explore the world. And having a strong sense of self and a curiosity to want to be an ally to others is just going to make their their community wherever they are, stronger, stronger asset for sure.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Absolutely. And even being well read is going to make them, I think, um, a stronger asset to their community and a more enjoyable life. There's so much joy in the opportunity to engage with books, to engage with stories and to imagine what the world could look like. Like there's so much beauty in that. I I've always, I probably have like tons of chill like childhood pictures of myself with books. Even now, like you could talk, like as a grown-up, you could ask my little brother or my dad. I always carry books around. And I absolutely love now that my daughter is getting to that point where she's loving to read, she's still learning, you know, how to uh how to read, but she's trying to pick books out for herself. We love going to the library, independent bookstore, they hate to see us coming because we're coming in, we're gonna buy something. So I love that not only do I have that passion and that love, but my husband and our daughter, we enjoy being able to read as a family. Um, and like the other day we were in the car and we went to the library, and so my daughter was like reading as we were driving to where we were going. And she was like, Oh, it's so great that we have like books in the car. I'm like, you should always keep a book with you. Like at all times. Yes, at all times, no matter what. And so I was like actually talking to my best friend at the time, and we both chuckled because we both love to read. And she was like, Yeah, starter young. I was like, exactly. It's so critical, but that also just speaks to how important the literature is that our children are seeing and how important the work that you're doing is. And so I love that you are so active in the Kid Lit community. I know that you were doing some of the awards for Black Kid Lit and being able to engage with authors who are historically underrepresented. I love that you're highlighting and uplifting their voices.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that because I I wanted to make sure that I shared that on this platform. I am part of the Black Kid Lit collective. Shout out to Valisha who she organizes that every year and gets us all together and really keeps us organized with the spreadsheets. So every year we're reviewing books that have been published by black authors and or illustrators that highlight black storytelling. And I find it so powerful because oftentimes there are so many books that are published by black authors. And this is goes back to something you mentioned a few minutes ago, but like the rollout of it or the publicity that it receives is so just either underfunded or not emphasized enough. And then the books go on, they we don't know about it, consumers don't know about it, families don't know about it. So being part of the Black Kid Lit collective has allowed me this opportunity to get a firsthand look at these books, and then it's really fun. Rate them, we give awards. I do want to mention that we just put together a reading guide for books that were published in 2025. It's totally great, it's pinned to my page, but we reviewed Black Kid Lit that was published in 2025, and then we kind of like sorted them into different themes. So there's like empathy builders, conversation starters. One of my favorites is the visual storytelling. And so it's just a book list, it's free, it's pinned to my page. And so if you're like wondering or want an easy resource to just kind of save for the next book haul or you know, the next time you're at the library, of course. It's a great resource, but it allows us to advocate for those authors and give them the the shine that they deserve and acknowledgement for what they're doing and keeping the storytelling alive in our communities for sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah, so thank you so much for sharing that. I'll make sure to add that to the show notes so that people can get it right from here or they can come to the link in your bio and find it there. But it's so important and I love um how you framed it in terms of like a library list, right? Like you can utilize it the next time you're going to go make a purchase or the next time you are going to go to the library. I'm not as organized as you all. So usually it's me seeing something on your page or something on someone else's page and screenshotting it and saying, oh, I need to go find this book because it looks great. But having that list, I think, is a great tool to be able to utilize and to aid you so you don't forget. There's so many amazing books out here, but my mental Rolodex of things is not allowing me to keep everything at the forefront.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

And the other part of this, right, is making sure that we hold like the larger systems accountable. So when you're at the library and you don't see these titles, you can request books to your library to um to add to their collection. So that's the other part of it that it could be used for a tool to like encourage diversity at your library as well. If you're finding that a lot of these titles, these diverse titles are lacking.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yeah. And I'm not an expert on this, but I believe that same thing can happen at your local independent bookstore. If you're looking for a book, they can order it. And a lot of times when I go into our um local independent shop and they might be tired of me, or maybe not, because I'm giving them some new topics. And I I need to like order something because I want to make sure that that's also something that we're highlighting too is supporting authors when we can and also supporting our local independent bookstores because they need our support more than a lot of these mainstream spaces. But when I go in and I say, hey, I'm looking for XYZ, and they maybe say, Oh, we don't have that in the store. Usually the person who I'm talking to not only orders a copy for me so that I can purchase it through the store, but also orders a couple extra copies to keep in the store. Yeah. So that's another way, like a lot of these times, and I am a new author, so like I haven't been around this block for a while, but I'm learning quickly. A lot of times people who have maybe not gone the traditional publishing route don't necessarily get all of that shine or conversation, like you mentioned, on their books. And so that is one way that you could support your local independent author is by requesting their book, especially if it's available through the ways that sellers get their um books and things like that. So that's also a great way to be able to highlight the work that people are doing because there's so much love that goes into writing a book. We want to make sure that people are able to get highlighted for their work and that their book gets shared because the main goal is that it gets into the hands of children.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah. And so you're emphasizing, right, the importance of community. So we we learn about your book, we go, we rec we ask for it to be ordered, we recommend it to family, we recommend it to our followers. We want it in the schools, we want it in the library, and so it becomes this really this collective effort, this call to action when we want to see the representation in literature. So when we learn of authors to uphold that. And like you said, going to your favorite bookstore. I'm in New Jersey and a good friend of mine, Sindell's in Plainfield, New Jersey, is I want to say the only black woman-owned bookstore in New Jersey. They also write that down. Please come come to Central Jersey and visit her. But yeah, Sindell's is it's located inside of a coffee shop, Queen City Roasters, another like just great staple in the community, bringing folks together. And it's the same way. We we go, we drop a stack, and then we're like, oh, and can you order this? And can we come back? And can we story time for the kids? It just creates this like third space that I think is so important. Can we talk about your book though? You mentioned that so humbly and just kind of like, I want to spend some time on that. Tell us what you have cooking, what can we expect? I'm ready to read it.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Yeah, so I wrote a children's book that I am moving forward on, and it is going to be coming out in October. And we actually have an expected release date of my birthday, October 18th of this year. And so the book is called Big Love, and it was actually I've wrote a couple manuscripts uh since, but this was. The first manuscript that I wrote um a few years ago now, and I kind of been, you know, sitting on it, tweaking it, trying to figure it out, but it's about a mother's love for her daughter. And so this year felt extremely important as I continue to grieve my mom and miss my mom every day. And this year felt extremely important to move forward with it and to find an illustrator and to find a way to get it into the hands of children because my mom would have wanted me to do that. So I'm extremely excited. I am working with an amazing illustrator. Her name is Jessica Hill, and she is doing such amazing work on the book and the pictures. She's actually using photos of my mom and I to base, yes, to base the characters off of. And so it's a it's a really emotional experience. I know that authors put, as I had said before, they put a lot of love within their books and the work that they do. I didn't realize how much until I was on this end. Cannot wait for people to read it to their babies. I cannot wait for and babies of all ages. Like I can see this being a book too that, you know, grown-ups, like grown-up parents read to their children. And I'm excited. I'm excited to get it out into the field. I'm excited for people to hold it in their hands and for them to hold a piece of my mom and I as they engage with the book and love it and share it.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

It's that element of storytelling, that family, you know, it's so it's gonna be I can't wait to see it. I can't wait to see it. But like it's the healing, right? It's the healing, hopefully, for you in the process and for us as readers that we can share that space with you. Uh and now knowing the backstory behind it resonates even more deeply with us. Um and I think it's gonna be so powerful. The the photos, right? Picture books, the imagery makes them so powerful sometimes. And so hearing the backstory of where the imagery is going to come from, I think will resonate with a lot of grown-ups. And like we we started the conversation talking about like what grown-ups can get from picture books, but like just more healing, right? More healing are energy, like you know, stuff that we can relate to and and in and doing the work around grief too.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Wow. I'm I'm really excited to see it, Jasper.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

I'm excited too. The emotional connection piece, I think, for children's books, like you were mentioning, is huge. Like that makes me think of, you know, when thinking about healing and uh children's books, it makes me actually think of the book Big by Vashti Harrison. And so as I I read it a few years ago at a work event. And so I'm reading it and I'm like, this is a new book, like I haven't seen it before. The progression of like the tears that are flowing from my eyes as I'm reading it, as this grown-up who's like, wow, like I had a similar experience to this growing up, right? So that piece of you know, just seeing that character, how they navigated it, having the courage even to push back and say, like, hey, these are your words, and like making sure that they knew the importance of like who they are and they loved their body and they loved themselves. That's it was such an emotional experience for me. I went out and bought like three copies to share with people. And I even like I mentioned my best friend a lot, like in the work that I do because she's so instrumental in everything that I do. So shout out to Victoria because I love you so much. I had her read it and she even shared like a sort of like emotional response to it. And so I love how connected we can all become from sharing books and loving them. I'm sure there are a few that we even read as children growing up where we could talk and be like, oh, I love that one, or oh, I love to read that one now to my child, or I'd love to have that one in our community. So books are so powerful and such a great opportunity for connection. And I'm just really excited for this process and really excited to release big love into the world. I can't wait to read it. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to share it and um excited for what it will mean to people who engage with it. Keep us posted. Of course, I will. So you are full of so many gems and tips. If someone wanted to take one step today toward building a more diverse bookshelf for the children in their life, where would you tell them to start? What should they do?

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Would start off by congratulating them, right? There's this element here of intentionality and wanting to make a shift and have have the action follow, right? And then I would tell them obviously make sure they're following us because there's a lot of gems there. But I would, you know, it's it's the source, right? Where you're getting your information from is going to be critical. If they have this kid lit influencers or book people online that they're following and they trust them, their values align, they can oftentimes be a really great source for bigger, consistent book lists. I know we just talked about library week coming up. I think that's the most accessible step is going to your local library, checking out what they have on display. You know, if there's some anything going on, if there's a holiday or heritage month, they're oftentimes they're having book lists or events around that. But I I would say the biggest step is like finding a source that they trust and can be consistent with. Um, because that will be the window into the titles that they should be looking for. And if they could use their library, that would be ideal.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

And I also think for um the grown-ups that are out there that are listening, not just doing these and trying to diversify your child's bookshelf, but also try to diversify yours as well. Like there are so many great books that you could introduce yourself to, whether they're around parenting, whether they're around just being a human, whether they're fictional. Like there's so many different ways to diversify our bookshelves. We all should be taking that step. We can't set the example for our children if we're not willing to do it for ourselves as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

You mentioned this in passing earlier, right? Where you and your husband and your your baby, everybody's reading and you have that love. That doesn't happen by accident, right? We have to lead by example. And in the age where our critical thinking and our, you know, the we're not allowed to be as whimsical as we want to be, like reading is an act of resistance. So there are so many parents that I talk to and they're like, I don't, I've never been a reader and I'm not sure what to read. And it's just one of those skills or one of those hobbies that you can really pick up. There's so many options, and then challenging yourself to read diversely, right? But the modeling, them seeing us do it and and having a true, genuine love for it is such an important step in raising a bookworm or like fostering a love for reading. And even when we talk about like comics and graphic novels, like ebooks, all of that is reading. So many options.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Audio books, which is as a busy mom, I live with the audiobook. Like if you see me with an AirPod in, generally not on the phone, I'm trying to like finish up my book that's on my Libby account. So there's so many ways to engage and to find things that are meaningful for you to read, but please do it. Please pick up a book.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yes. Please pick up a book. It doesn't, and it can be about anything in any format. Yes. And just give your brain that love.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Yes, for sure, for sure. Well, I know that definitely after this conversation, if they haven't already, people are going to want to find you and follow your work. So where can people find you and get to know you and follow the great amazing things that you are doing?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

I appreciate that. They can find me on socials, so on socials across on babybook doc. And then they can also check out my website, babybookdoc.com.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for this amazing conversation. I have a ton of other things that I think we can continue to talk about. So I will hope that I can get you back on the show eventually. But thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Thank you for having me. Thank you for the space. What you're doing here with your podcast is really inspiring folks and bringing voice to our community. And we can't thank you enough for putting this out there and facilitating these important conversations.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Thank you. I think we need more of these spaces. And so I'm excited that we were able to share space too. And I can't wait to talk to you again soon. Yay. Thank you, Jasmine. You're welcome. Talk to you soon. All right, you've just finished another episode of Children Deserve Better. But this is where the real work starts. Take what spoke to you today and put it into action. Change doesn't come from staying comfortable, and better starts with us. If you loved what you heard here on the podcast today, leave me a review. And hey, let's not let the conversation end here. Find me over at the Anti Bias ECE and at Equity and Bloom on Instagram. I'd love to hear your thoughts and questions about how you're making moves. Let's keep learning, unlearning, and growing together. See you soon.