Freedom Dreaming and Transformative Change with Kisa Marx

Today on Children Deserve Better, Dr. Jasmine Moses is joined by the amazing Kisa Marx for a conversation that feels especially meaningful, as it was recorded on the very day her book entered the world. Together, they discuss her new book, We Are Who We’re Waiting For: Transformative Change in Early Childhood Education, and what it means to create spaces where children can live, grow, and be seen as their full selves.

In this conversation, Kisa shares what freedom dreaming means to her and how it can shape the way adults show up for children in classrooms, homes, and communities. The conversation explores preserving children’s dreams instead of placing adult expectations on them, why changing our minds is necessary if we want to do better for children, and how unlearning is part of the work.

They also reflect on the children who are often overlooked, especially the “quiet” children. This episode is an invitation to slow down, reflect, and think more deeply about the kind of world we want children to grow up in and what it will take from all of us to build it.

In this episode, they discuss:

• Kisa’s new book, We Are Who We’re Waiting For
• What freedom dreaming means in the context of children and education
• The harm of equating quietness with being “fine” or being a “good child”
• Changing our minds as part of lifelong learning
• Modeling mistakes, apology, and repair with children
• Community care and what it really means to embrace all children
• The power of storytelling and “saying the quiet part out loud”

Where to find Kisa:

• Substack: Kisa Marx / Function of Freedom
• Instagram: @iam_still_learning
• Instagram: @theplaylabfoundation
• Website: https://theplaylabnfpoakpark.org/ 
• Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/liberated-learning/id1866573493

GRAB THE BOOK:

We Are Who We’re Waiting For: Transformative Change in Early Childhood Education is available now through Redleaf Press. A 20% discount code is also available using the code: WWWW20

https://www.redleafpress.org/We-Are-Who-Were-Waiting-For-Transformative-Change-in-Early-Childhood-Education-P3172.aspx

A reminder from this episode: Read the book, share it, tell somebody about it, and keep putting this work into the hands of people who care for children. Anywhere children are, this conversation matters.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Children Deserve Better Podcast, where we unpack the big issues shaping our children and communities. I'm your host, Dr. Jasmine Moses, a toddler mama, anti-biased, anti-racist educator, and advocate for building a better, more equitable world for all. Here we dive into social justice, community challenges, and those taboo conversations, breaking them down into real talk that makes sense for children or even actionable steps for the adults guiding them. Children are ready, you can do this, so let's dive in together. Hello and welcome back to Children Deserve Better. It has been a while and I have missed you all. But today on the show we have a really special treat. I am so honored to welcome my friend, the lovely Kisa Marks, to the show as we talk about her new book, We Are Who We're Waiting For, which is out today. Kisa Marks is an educator, author, and keynote speaker dedicated to reimagining early learning through joy, play, and liberation. She leads the Play Lab Foundation in Oak Park, Illinois, where she is committed to creating black, child-affirming spaces that honor children's autonomy. Kisa is also a 2024 recipient of the International Play Association's Play Advocacy Award and the author of We Are Who We're Waiting For: Transformative Change in Early Childhood Education. You can find the book linked in the show notes where you can purchase it through Red Leaf Press, and there is also a 20% discount code there. So be sure to grab your copy. You'll also find access to the workbook that accompanies the book, which can be downloaded from the website. Today on Children Deserve Better, Kisa and I are in conversation about what it means to create spaces where children can live, grow, and be seen as their full selves. Because we recorded this on the very day her book entered the world, this conversation was so, so special. In this episode, Kisa shares what freedom dreaming means to her and how it can shape the way we show up for children in classrooms, homes, and communities. We talk about preserving children's dreams instead of placing adult expectations on them, why changing our minds is necessary if we want to do better for children, and how unlearning is part of the work. We also reflect on the children who are often overlooked, especially the quiet children. Together we talk about invisibility, identity, storytelling, repair, apology, community, and the importance of humanizing not only children, but ourselves and one another. This episode is an invitation to slow down, reflect, and think more deeply about the kind of world we want children to grow up in and what it will take from all of us to build in. I am honored to know and love Kisa, and I am so excited for you to hear this powerful conversation about freedom dreaming, transformative change, and her beautiful new book. Enjoy the show. Hello and welcome back to Children Deserve Better. I am so grateful to have my friend here, the lovely Kisa Marks, and we are going to get into why I'm so excited. But first, I just want to say that we are recording this podcast on the day that her book is now in the world. So we are gonna talk more of yes, we are gonna talk more about Kisa's book throughout the show. Um, but this is the first plug about We Are Who We're Waiting For, Transformative Change in Early Childhood Education, which is out today on March 15th. So thank you so much, Kisa, for being here with me today. Um, why don't you tell the listeners who are you and how do you make the world better for children?

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Okay, well, that's a big question. Well, first, thank you for having me. Thank you for being the wonderful person that you are. Thank you for arranging this where it fell right on the day the book was released because this is like a special moment, and to share the space with you on this day truly means the world to me. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

My name, for those who don't know me, is Kisa Marks, and I design uh child, black child affirming spaces in family home care in Oak Park, Illinois, called the Play Lab Foundation. And how do I make the world better for children? Well, I feel like liberation is always on the front of my mind. And so every day, you know, everybody has their kind of cold when they wake up and it's either do no harm or whatever. Mine is to try to liberate someone, myself, and someone else every single day. And so if I can get up and make spaces where a person can feel free, not just free, but liberated because nobody can take that from them, then I've done my job.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

It's amazing. And I know that you'll tell um the listeners much more about like your work um and what you're doing, all of your work, because you are doing so many amazing things. Um, but we are here to talk some about freedom dreaming, which I love hearing you talk about. So, this show, I'm gonna be more of a listener than I am of a talker because you all just really need to hear from Kisa. She is doing such amazing work, and I know that you will be dropping so many nuggets that people can take back right into their spaces in which they are with children, no matter what those spaces look like, um, after they hear the show. So, when you talk about freedom dreaming, for the people who may be hearing that phrase for the first time, what does freedom dreaming mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

So, I'm glad you asked that question because I feel like, especially in the world of education, everything, all words are so ambiguous. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. So I think that when we go into spaces and we use particular uh words, we need to be explicit about what those words mean to us so that everybody's on the same page and on the definition of the certain terms. So freedom dreaming for me is holding space for your dreams and other people's dreams and thinking of a way where um you're not oppressed by the system, you're not forced to mask in the world, and that might be a cultural mask, that might be a mask that you wear because of neurodivergence, um, whatever that may be, that you can go out in the world as your whole self and feel safe and a part of it. So that to me is a freedom dream.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

And how do you think freedom dreaming shows up for people who are looking for more of a way to do this work with children? What are some of the examples of ways that freedom dreaming shows up in our work with children?

SPEAKER_02 7:15

The way that freedom dreaming shows up for our children is when we don't put our stuff onto our children, right? This goes more into the book or if people have heard me speak before, I talk about that our job is not to put morality on children and and and put all these expectations on them. Our job is to preserve their dreams. And so if we can go into a space and see a child as a child and listen to them, know them, become attuned with them, and then preserve the things that they're telling us through behavior. It doesn't have to be literally telling us, but if we can do that, then we can affect some change in our spaces.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

I think that's so important for not just educators, but for people who are raising children, which I think is a collective term in so many different forms, right? Um such an important piece of childhood, too, as children are getting to know the world around them and coming to understand the ways in which adults operate and the ways in which things have been done. This is an important piece, like an important component for them.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah. With this book, I emphasize how it's just the people who share space with children, right? And this, when I say children, I mean anybody from the first 1800 days, which is what we do the early years, and then all the way up to the 18th year. These are all our children. And so the responsibility that we have to speak life into children, I don't have to be their parent. I don't have to be their neighbor, I don't have to be their teacher. You can be the lady across the hall. But if you see that, if you can be that person that can speak life into that child, that child trusts you. I just read, uh, I think it was Substack or somewhere I read, where a lady was at work and in the child in her classroom, mother had passed away, and the child came in, she was like busy head down doing work, and the child was just like, I need you right now. And it was her mother's birthday. And the fact that that child thought she could come to her teacher in the most vulnerable moment she was in, that's what you want for every child. That they feel like you are that safe space. And like I said, it doesn't have to be the teacher in the classroom. Mine was the lunch lady. So it could be anybody who does that.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

And also thinking about what you just said, it struck something for me because I think we also need these things as we still are growing into adults, right? Like when you just talked about the child who lost her mom, like, of course, that made me think, ooh, that is such an emotional experience that people are still learning to navigate. And we are all someone's baby, right? We're all someone's child. And so I think as we continue to teach children and like the children around us, I'm still teaching and growing my inner child and explaining those things to this child to make sure that um they are safe and know that they can be vulnerable and know that they can be seen by folks and know that you know she can go to people and say what she needs.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

So that I think she's with you everywhere you go.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Everybody, I'm grown, I'm grown, but that little version of you is still there.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

It stays, it stays, and I find that the older I get, the more I feel her showing up in different forms. And so that makes the work of what you talk about in your book, of what you do every day, of what people are doing with children every day that much more important because it's not just this um time frame we like to think like zero to five, right? You extended it already to zero to 18. But I'm gonna even take it a step further. Like it's zero for the rest of our lives. And so it is imperative that we have these transformative experiences as children are young, but we continue to transform and we are on a continuous journey of becoming as we continue on too. And you talk so eloquently about this in your book. Um, and I'm just excited because as we stated, the book is out today. So tell us about it. What inspired you to write this book and what do you hope people take with them after they read it?

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Well, at the risk of sounding too woo, uh I've been really thinking about it lately, and I feel like I feel I feel confident in my writing. I feel like I'm a good writer, but I feel like this story came to me. I don't believe this has anything to do with my talent alone, you know? Um, there were just different moments that blended together that made this body of work, and it started in I think 2020, 2021 until now. And in a nutshell, it's a love letter to black children, black educators, neurodivergent children, queer children, um, any marginalized child or person um in amplifying our voices, telling our stories, uh, just shining a light on the joy that we have because people rush to see um the trauma that you've been through, um any of the adversity um to pinpoint why a person um is in the gap, right? But they don't look at the humanity of the person itself, they don't look at the joy in those impoverished families, right? They don't see that they come from a whole family, they just lack the resources and opportunity. And so I'm not telling, I'm not creating anything that's brand new, but what I'm doing is I'm giving a different vantage point so you can see the humanity of the people that most only want to study.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

The field of early childhood needs more of these examples. Um, and if they're the quote of if there's something that you want to read that's not there, you should write it. And I'm so glad that you have done it and have done it in such a beautiful way where it is going to connect to so many different people. And it's gonna impact so many children. It's gonna impact so many babies as people pick up the book and read it and share it and actually take its teachings and apply them to the work that they're doing. So I am so grateful for the work and just so excited to have been able to read it, to have been able to um write the foreword for it, to have been able to, you know, be a part of this process that you have had of, you know, taking these thoughts and these ideas and putting them down on paper and so eloquently packaging it that it is going to be such a beautiful space in the field. If someone reads your book and is thinking about the world that they want children to grow up in, which is something that we all should continue to think about, right? What is one thing that they can start doing right now? And it doesn't have to be one thing. What are a few things that they could do?

SPEAKER_02 15:15

The first thing is to make space to change your mind. The things that we've been taught, they're ingrained in us, you know, they're generations long. That's uh the way it's always been done in every classroom and every educator behaves this way, we take on this role. So to unlearn those things, even when we're actively trying, sometimes we fall back if we feel like we lack control or we feel off-kilter in any way, we latch on to what we know how to do. And so the biggest thing that we can do is change our mind and understand that those things don't serve us and they never served our children, and so we have to change it. The first thing that you can't do anything, you can rearrange everything in your physical space. Um, you can stop being teacher focused and become play-based. None of that's gonna matter if you don't change your mind because you're gonna still be performing teacher roles instead of actually changing.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Interesting thing, too, of people like changing their mind is that I think we as a society think that like once we have a stance on something, there is no coming back from it, right? There's no change. You double down right. You have to double down, and that is the stance that you have to take for the rest of your life. And I have I find so many problems within that thought process. But one of the biggest things is that if we are supposed to be lifelong learners and we're teaching children to do the same because we all should be teaching them about this continuous journey of learning. If you think that you can't change your mind, that's a block on the continuous process of learning that we should all be on. Um, things are going to evolve. Exactly. Exactly. And they see us.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

They see us do that.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

And so honesty in the ways that we should be working with children tells us that we should be modeling for them what we're telling them that they should do. We can't say, have an open mind, children, and be open, go out into spaces and learn new things when we're not even willing to do that first and foremost as adults.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

And we don't believe that then we act like we're perfect. And we don't, we yeah, the kids never see us make a mistake. I make it my business and my space. Um, just like my handle is I'm still learning. That's what I say with the kids. We all say that they're still learning, they're still learning, I'm still learning. And then when I make a mistake, I make it public record. Like, oh, Miss Kisa forgets everything. Oh, I forgot this again. Oh, I dropped this because I'm not perfect. I get angry, I get frustrated, I get confused, I'm wrong. You know what I mean? Yeah. And if I want my children, the children that I'm caring for, to take on those values, then I have to show them how it's done. I have to model that behavior. I am not perfect.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

And also, perfectionism is white supremacy standards, right? Come on. And also the patriarchy telling us that we can't make mistakes and that we have to be flawless. So, yeah, you know, a really big part of decolonizing our teaching and our education practices in the field of early childhood is us first coming to understand that we do have we have to change our minds and we have to be open to this space of learning and growing and becoming being an educator. And I it's so interesting the way that um growing up in my education field and like going to school for early childhood, and then first coming out into the field, I thought that there was an educator that I had to be and or become, and that was it, right? I had I go through all of this schooling, and then I do my practicum, and then this is the educator. However, I show up, it's how I'm gonna continue to show up for the rest of my uh educated education career. Not true. And the folks that you are finding in the field who feel that way, we we gotta get them to shift, or we have to continue moving the field forward so that we can actually lead it in a way that is conducive to not just grownups but for children too. And part of that comes from just needing to learn, like being open to having that space, like you say, being open to changing your mind. What else? What else can they start doing as we continue to put the book out into the world and think about the ways that we want to create a space where we want children to be and where we want them to thrive and be successful?

SPEAKER_02 20:19

We can first and foremost have grace for ourselves and the change that we're going through, right? We have to be patient with ourselves. And if we are talking about what I call the master's tools is uh white supremacy and the systems that are created around that, then we have to know that that feeling that everything has to be instant and urgent and perfect is all a part of that, right? Yep. So showing up messy, slowing down, and understanding that this is a long journey that we're going to be on. Those that's part of decolonizing what we're in. It's part of our unlearning and part of our growth, right? We can't reach the level of emotional maturity that we need to be at to keep evolving if we just keep going back to the same formula that don't work. It just does not work.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

It doesn't work, it doesn't work. And so many people stressed out because we're trying to do it.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

And so many people have said it's broken.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

It's broken.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

So many people have said it's broken. I argued that it's not broken.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

It's working in the way that it's supposed to be doing. You're right, you're right. And that is so hard for people, I think, to understand. But it is, like you said, working in the way that it was intended. But I'm under the impression at this point we need to burn it to the ground. I remember we had a conversation about the matches. You and I had a conversation um about like fire. Uh in one of our conversations and the restorative power of it. It's time to burn it to the ground. Our children really deserve better, for lack of a better term. And so do we. So do we. So it's it's time to get there and to take those steps to get there. Did you have a section of the book that was hard or difficult for you to write or even for you to grapple with?

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Yes. So the beginning. When um when I'm kind of explaining who I am and how the me that you see came to be, and the section about my sister. Those were the hardest to get out there. Because of the system is because the system is the way that it is, it rewards invisibility. So the quiet child in school is the child that passes through, you know? The one that doesn't make much fuss, and you don't even see them in the classroom. And that was not who my twin was, but that is who I was. And so we had the same classroom, the same experience, same teachers, but our experiences were very, very different. And so most of my school trauma comes from quietly observing the things that happened to her. And so um I am not one to tell someone else's story. And so it was hard to grapple with the fact that it's my story too. It's uh experience it. She's my twin sister, so her story is my story. Um, and that was very difficult, and then just the the nature of who I am. I'm a storyteller, so I can tell a story, but when it comes to things that are true, um really personal to my heart, then I'm like really closed up about it. And so to be able to honestly tell the story was like cracking something open to talk about myself, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

And I don't think we talk about ourselves enough, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Yeah, like we don't, we don't.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

And the power is so much power in storytelling. Like you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that you know the the book just came to you, right? Like the story came to you, but there is so much power in being able to take thoughts and a story that comes and put it out in a way where people feel themselves within your words, like even as you were talking, our situations are different. But the idea of going through and observing quietly, and the quiet child is the one that people think is the child that um is doing well, or is that uh it's not needed, they don't need anything, or that was my experience too. And so as I become the invisible child, you're like you, yeah, yeah, and as I immersed myself in reading, and of course, emotional all the time in terms of like reading your work and like feeling, you know, my experiences. I also thought about how many times I, as an educator, unintentionally did that to the children that were in my care, right? Like, how many times did I just say, oh, they're they're a good kid, they'll be fine. Like I know that, you know, I have to focus a little bit more on my like challenging behaviors and a little bit more on, you know, the children who make you pay attention, right? But there is a lot of opportunity to be able to focus on the children who are just quietly walking through, right? Those ones that probably need us the most, but have learned to not, have learned to try to rely on themselves and to figure it out. Um, and at what point do we stop equating that with being a good child, right? Like at what point do we stop equating this being invisible with that of like being a good kid? Because I think there's a lot of us that are unlearning. I know I'm a grown-up and I like us, I'm still unlearning like a lot of this now, when we talked about needs being met. I'm still trying to figure that out. And so as educators of the smallest humans, we have to make sure that we are not continuing to perpetuate this cycle for them. And it's just it's such an important conversation to have. And I know you always, for me, I can always count on you saying the quiet part out loud. And this is quite literally the quiet part out loud, right? Like this is quite literally that. But we need to continue to have those conversations because we need to be advocating for these children who are also finding themselves in this situation.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Yeah, and I I think that was the part, one of the parts that came to me that I didn't intend to do. I didn't intend to say the quiet part out loud from the quiet point of view. It just wound up saying it for me. And then I was like, oh, I'm connecting the dots with oh, this is this is what I'm grappling with right now. I know for myself, I felt it's a long stand. I'm a uh prolific journal writer. So, and I keep all my journals.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

That's a skill. Most people can't finish a journal. I'm I'm most people.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Yeah, I'll I'll wear them out. But one thread that is consistent between all of my old journal writing is that feeling of invisibility that I wasn't seen, that I wasn't heard. I was my my sister's twin, I was my brother's little sister, I was my mother's daughter, and then I got up with my husband really young, so I was Big Chris's girlfriend, and then his wife, and then I was my kid's mother. A mom. And so I was never Kisa in a space and for many, many decades. That you know, my identity was being the other to someone else. Yeah, and even when I had a child who's very similar to me, I did the same thing. He had the same quiet personality, and I'm just like, oh thank God, you know, because I got two boy boys. And thank the Lord that he's just quiet and goes on about his business. But I think I don't have a lot of regrets because we learn through our mistakes, but when I think about it, that's the one thing that does sting is that that ability to leave the child who seems capable just because you think they got it. But they have needs too, you know, and and the only thing you can do is learn from it and course correct. And so that's what I try to do. I try to check on, check in on him as much as possible, just for no other reason to than to let him know that I'm thinking about him. And I do it with the babies that I care for. The quiet kid is always gonna get my first attention because I know it might be something that I'm missing with them.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

It's so interesting, too, like the ways that this shows up. Um, and so like my daughter is the complete opposite of a quiet childhood.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

I guess that's what I got too.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

So as you were saying that, I was like, oh wow. But I also am immensely proud of who she is growing up to be because at three, she has such courage to be herself in every single space. We know that she is consistent and that she is gonna be herself wherever she is, and I think being the quiet adult raising the non-quiet child is also an interesting experience that I know you can identify with with your other your other two children too. And it's it is making me so reflective as we continue to talk about this because a part of, you know, while I'm raising her, a part of my like reservation when we go into certain spaces and things like that is like, well, I'm I don't want it to be too much, right? So different, kind of the same issue that I had processing me. Like, I don't want to be too much of somebody else, but in turn, I don't want her to be too much in different spaces. But it's so interesting the ways that that continues to trickle into our lives, like no matter what.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

We shrink and shrink and shrink and shrink, right? Until you like me and you, and we just is she there?

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Right, right. And you I don't want to unintentionally or intentionally do that to other children, but keeping them invisible is a way that we can unintentionally do that too, right? Continue to shrink them. And so there's so much that can be said about this, but I I really hope that the listeners out there are really taking heat. Like the next time you walk into a space, whether it's your house, whether it's your classroom, whether it's your community, like really think about the children that are in your space and the ways that you can affirm them, the ways that you can listen, the ways that you can bring them out to the forefront. And also think about the ways that you would have wanted that as a child, too, the opportunities that you would have wanted and you would have wished. Because, like you said, we can continue to self-correct, right? Like we have the opportunity as long as there is breath in your body, like you have the opportunity to continue to grow, evolve, and learn and change. Yeah. And come back and say that out loud. Yeah. Be wrong out loud. And we talked a bit a little bit about where kind of those reservations come from, but people are so like we can use the idea of loud and wrong in a negative way, right? But we can then also shift it to being like out loud and wrong too, in a way that's a little nuances here, like in a way that people can understand, right? In a way that people can understand and people can see. I don't have to hide this. Like in a community, we are not always going to agree and we are not always going to be right. But what is right and who gets to decide what that looks like?

SPEAKER_02 33:28

So I'm there right, right, and wrong. Why isn't there just understanding? I'm not trying to win up an argument with you, but I do want you to understand what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

You don't even have to agree.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

I just want you to understand.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

And I think people get so discouraged when people disagree with what they say or with what they do. But realistically, if you're building community for the ways that we should be building it, you're not gonna always agree. And guess what? I don't want to always agree.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

I don't, I don't, I don't want to be able to do that. I want to have diversity of thought. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Exactly. I want that space for us to, for you to teach me something, for me to teach you something, for us both to be confused, and then for us both to learn together. Like, I want that space to be able to operate in that way. And I think healthy communities operate that way. We are right now living in fascism, which tells us that like there should only be one uh stream of thought, and that's the right, that's the right way or no way.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

But that is what everybody's looking for this confirmation bias. But we don't all agree, our thoughts are not all the same, and that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

That is, that is that diversity of thought is a big piece, and even if we're looking at the same thing, we are going to see things differently, and there's so much beauty in that, there's so much strength and so much power in that, and we can teach children that yeah, we can teach children, we can teach children that going back to my twin sister.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Of course, we were born at the same time, we were carried at the same time. We can look at the same exact situation and see it totally different because she's seeing it from her trauma, she's seeing it from her experiences, from the script that's in her head, and I'm seeing it from all mine. And so we can look at it, the vantage point is like uh the kaleidoscope. Like we're looking at totally different things. Yeah, so yeah, I think that's the beauty of everybody having, you know, divergent thought. Like, it's not supposed to be just one bland version of life's experience, it's supposed to be colorful and different and bold and quiet, and that's where the real life is.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Yeah, and I remember like talking with my mom, and she had nine sisters and brothers. So when they would talk about their experiences, that would often come up. Like, you know, so-and-so feels this way or so-and-so felt that way. And then even with me and my brother, there's only two of us, but like we literally lived the same childhood, but a different one at the same time. Same time, yeah. But it's so nice to be able to have like those conversations of like we were in the same room at the same moment, but like I saw it this way, and like you saw it this way. But there's opportunity, but not just in family, like in ch in childhood too, like in early childhood spaces. Like there are people who I grew up with. I'm like, I loved Miss So-and-so, and they're like, Oh yeah, did you? Yeah, and it's because we could be literally in the same room experiencing the same things, but our way we process, the way we internalize, like that is all different for us.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

The way that the person that we received received us. So I my second grade teacher, that's a perfect example. My second grade teacher, Miss Climax, I loved her to this day. I love maps because we played the map game, and we would run up to the board and you would get the little pointer, and you would find she would call out of space and you would have to find it the fastest. And that was, I just loved everything about that core memory. My sister's core memory is that she loved Miss Climax, but one day she was in the hall and she said something like, She's like one of the dumbest students I've ever had. And so her experience of that same teacher is totally different than my experience of the teacher, you know, and so the teacher didn't say it in the classroom, but she happened to overhear her talking in the hall to other teachers, and that experience, how how we can experience something totally different from a person. And I think there's beauty for educators and parents that if your oldest child's experience is different from the middle child and the youngest and the grandchild, that's a good thing. That means you that means you grew. Yeah. I agree. So what we might resent when we're younger, we really oh, they grew up, they evolved. That's why they don't do those things anymore. That's why they don't speak to, they don't, they're not only yelling all day. They grew up. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

That's hard. And this is a a different tangent of conversation, but I think it's hard to humanize. I talk a lot about humanizing children because we need to, times a thousand. Yeah. However, that same thought process of humanizing adults or humanizing past versions of yourself is hard for people to process. That example that you just gave, that example that you just gave about like different parenting styles for like different children, like our parents are literally just figuring it out. And as a parent, like me and my husband laugh about this all the time, but like as a parent now, and we know how much of like, you know, hot messes we are, yeah. It is so funny to think about like the fact that like my mom had me and was literally just figuring it out, right? So humanizing our parents and like also our educators and like the people that we hold on such a pedestal is a really hard experience, but it is important to do, especially as we think about something that needs to be burned down.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

That feeling that that that person was perfect, that's why they're on that pedestal. They didn't do anything wrong, they knew all the answers, but guess what? No, they didn't. They were a hot bubbly mess because they had just been introduced to this parenthood or this new classroom, and that they had gotten all the book smarts from it, but they didn't have any of the experience yet. And so you're just fumbling your way through it and trying to figure it out. Yeah, some people may have been harmed while you were figuring it out. That doesn't mean that you weren't doing the best you could, that doesn't mean that it wasn't unintentional, it means that you are human. So maybe we could humanize the babies if we start to humanize ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. With also the understanding that if harm has happened and people are coming and saying that it has, being in this space of being a lifelong learner tells us to make sure that we recognize the harm that took place and to step out of ourselves for a moment so that we can make sure that we repair. That's right. Right? Repair is an important word, especially as we think about community with other grown-ups, especially as we think about community with children. Harm will happen when building community, but it is so important that we take a step back out of ourselves and we make sure that we can go in and work on repairing. It's so important. So important.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

I don't know if you've seen any of the the videos before online where they'll have like an eighth grader or high schooler or even a college student and someone apologizing them that like a teacher's never done that. Yeah. That's odd. I know that there's so many spaces where your harm is not acknowledged. I know. If you mess up, if I mess up, I have to own that I messed up.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

I know. And some people can't or they choose not to, and then people search their whole lives trying to find those spaces where people are able to apologize and imagine if we started that with young children, right? And we don't have to imagine because we are doing this work every day. However, think of the impact that you've made, that you've seen other educators make, other community members make, just from simply telling children that they apologize when they make a mistake, instead of always expecting children to have to do that without the accountability of adults to do it.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Yeah, and in forcing them to apologize for things when they don't even understand the concept of apology. How about I apologize and show you why people are really sorry? And I model that, and then you know. I with my my babies, all the only thing I ask is that you ask, is the person all right? Yeah. Yeah. Do they need a water bottle? Are you okay? And that's it. No apology needed because you don't understand what it is yet. Let me apologize to you and show you why people apologize. Let me apologize to that child. I'm sorry you're hurt so that I can show them how it's done. But if we don't model it, the only thing these kids are doing is what we're doing, performing a hollow version of existence. And we want whole robust lives, right? I want joy. I don't want to be just trying to like survive everything. Like, I want to experience it and love it. So I think the the way for us to do that is to show up as true, authentic, unapologetic people.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

And we want that for our children. More than anything, I want for our children to be able to experience that. And it's going to take a lot of work, it's going to take all of us in order to continue to move that forward.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

I think we've talked about it before, but. I go through how the quote of it takes a village to raise a child, but the rest of the quote is the child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down and feel feel its warmth. And that is true of us, and that is true of our children. Um when people crash out, if a child is feeling unheard, unseen, unvalued, and they behave in a way they lash out, that's somebody setting their village on fire to feel its warmth. We all want to be heard, seen, valued, and know that we're loved and we're safe, right? Or feel loved and safe, right? So to me, that is a very simple thing that we can do is we can embrace the children in our village. Not just the children that look like me, not just the children that think like me, not just the quiet children, the loud ones. That's one small step. You were asking about that. That's one small step that we can do is that bring every child into the center. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Not just the children that live here. All children everywhere. Yes. Everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

They're all our children. Like every child. All children are our children. Yep. There's a little girl that passes by our the play lab. Her mom's been since she was a carrier baby. Walking back and forth. We know her name. We wave to her. We include her if we have an event because she's our child.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

It doesn't matter that she's never come in here. You know, that's from down the street. We don't even know where she lives. We just see her. But she's our child too. She's their friend too. And I think if we're really talking about community, like for real, for real. Not the performative kind. Right. But the community where I know my neighbor. I know that I can go to them for help. I know that if something goes wrong, you know, they're good. If we're gonna do that, it takes more than us keeping our windows closed, you know, keeping our gates high. We have to actually get out there and take care of each other.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

I am so, so, so, so, so excited. I can't say it enough. I'm so excited for people to get this book in their hands. You even included a playlist of music for people to use and to vibe with as they engage with the book, engage with this work. What are some of the other few things that you might want people to know as they're getting ready to um embark on this journey of reading your book?

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Well, I'm glad you brought that up. The playlist is key for many, many, many, many years. I didn't have a voice. So it's very, very quiet. Yeah, everything was through song. So my whole personality was in my playlist. So if you wanted to know what I was thinking, listen to my playlist. And so me. So yeah. So those songs were curated of like what I was listening to and what I was thinking when I was writing those particular things at those moments, or they conveyed how it was feeling when the situation that I'm recalling is going on. And I don't say that anywhere in the book, so I think I should have.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Yeah, and this is a good opportunity for people to hear it and for them to be able to engage with the music in a way that is transformative for their experience as they read the book. All right, Kisa, where can people find out more about you and your work?

SPEAKER_02 47:42

Well, you can find me on Substack. I don't know enough about Substack Stack yet to know if they have handles, but you can look up Kisa Marks and I'll be there. That's where I have all my scribbles, uh, which I'm really enjoying. Uh, you can find me on Instagram, I am underscore still underscore learning, or at the play lab on Instagram. And you can find me on our website, that's the playlaboakpark.org. So those are the just a few of the places, but usually if you just Google my name, because I'm probably making up a lot of this stuff and it's all wrong, but the right information will come up.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Yeah. And I wanted to say, I actually follow Kisa on Substack, and so it is at KisaMarks on there, but the writing that you do is under the function of freedom. So you could search either of those. Um, and people can find you, and you should continue to engage with Kisa's work, especially after you read the book, and find her in her many different places. She has a podcast, she's running a program, she's doing community work, like Kisa is doing the things, like she is doing it. And so please make sure that you find her on every single platform if you have not already. And then also finding um her book, which you can definitely find at um the link in uh both of our bios, but you can also purchase from Red Leaf Press. Um, and so we are who we're waiting for transformative change in early childhood education, like we said, is out today. Um, if you go and find uh Kisa's um page, or if you go and find mine, there is a 20% off promo code that folks can use in order to purchase the book. What I encourage you to do is to not just read it and leave it. What I encourage you to do is read it, share it, tell a friend about it, who tells a friend about it, who tells a sister, who tells an auntie, who tells a cousin, right? We want to continue to put this work out into the world, continue to get it into the hands of folks who need it so that we can all be a part of this transformative change in early childhood education. So I am so proud of you, Kisa. I'm proud of your work. I am proud of everything that you are doing to impact the field of early childhood education. And I am so grateful that I get to be able to witness it, to witness your greatness. So if you have not yet been sold on getting this book, I hope that you click the show notes and you add it to the cart. Invite Kisa, right, go get it, invite Kisa to talk to your programs, invite her to come and speak to your communities. We need to be spreading this news within our early childhood spaces and outside of our early childhood spaces because there are so anywhere the children are, yeah. Anywhere the children are. Childhood does not stop in early childhood education. It's the foundation, but it continues way beyond. And so we need to make sure, way beyond. And so we need to make sure that we are continuing to put this message out so that we can all be better for children because they deserve better.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

Thank you so much. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

See what you did there. Yes. Thank you so much, Kisa, for joining us today. Thanks for being here. All right, you've just finished another episode of Children Deserve Better. But this is where the real work starts. Take what spoke to you today and put it into action. Change doesn't come from staying comfortable, and better starts with us. If you loved what you heard here on the podcast today, leave me a review. And hey, let's not let the conversation end here. Find me over at the Anti Bias ETE and at Equity and Bloom on Instagram. I'd love to hear your thoughts and questions about how you're making moves. Let's keep learning, unlearning, and growing together. See you soon.